Should you give out free coding to co-workers without being compensated for it?

[malik641]

This is the dilema at my job. I work at an engineering company where we design/engineer pools and I'm a designer using AutoCAD. When I was hired I was on a probational period, and then after 90 days I had a review and a raise (not as much as I was looking for). The review happened recently with my supervisor and the VP of the company. In the review I was explaining to the VP about the small procedures I wrote to help my production, and he asked if anyone else had these tools. I told him no, not yet...and he says "Share the wealth" and I responded with "Well, shouldn't I be paid accordingly? If I have this type of knowledge and nobody else at my job does, shouldn't I be compensated for it?" And he goes on this whole spiel about WIIFM (what's in it for me) and how that's not being a team player and blah blah blah.

Now, I have no problem sharing the small procedures w/ my co-workers, but I have some ideas for the future that will be much bigger projects. And these people are expecting me to just give it away at my job when I'm being paid the same (or relatively close to) my fellow co-workers? In my opinion, I don't think so. Why should I spend my free time, hard work, and studies just to give these things out for free and not be compensated for it?

Maybe I'm just being bitter, but I'd like to hear everyone else's opinion. Am I wrong about this?

[geekgirlau]

It's a difficult one Joseph, and sometimes it comes down to the company and team you're working with.

I'm lucky enough at the moment to be working with a team where we all share code and ideas. We're a mixture of contractors and permanent staff, all developers, and all with strengths in different areas. The lack of ego and one-upmanship in this environment makes it a pleasure to come to work.

Personally I would lean towards sharing the code, but don't do it as the invisible man. Document all of the tools that you have shared along with your estimate of the productivity gains that resulted from the use of these tools. With the larger projects, put forward a formal business case for each project. What you then have is evidence that these ideas came from you, and great leverage in terms of your next pay review.

In fact, why not promote what you are doing within the company? If your employer has any sort of recognition scheme going, make sure your work is constantly being put forward.

[Ken Puls]

Joseph,

The other thing you may want to do is just ask your boss flat out... "If I could save the company $x.xx per year, would I be compensated for it? Don't give your ideas away at that point, but make sure that the sum is large enough to warrant their attention. If they say yes, THEN put forward the formal proposal, and how you expect the payoff to be measured.

Personally, I code for the enjoyment of it, and give away anything to my co-workers... so long as it is developed on the job. If that's the case, then it is work property. If I do it at home, however, the rights to it remain mine. Hard to prove, but I'm lucky enough to have a great boss who gives me great flexibility.

Best of luck to you...

[brettdj]

Every office has its Excel guru - but I bet the guru never gets an direct additional $ for his/her skills. What they do get is their colleagues appreciation, and a reputation for being switched on, that can be worth a lot come remuneration time

[Sir Babydum GBE]

Joseph,

It's a good question you ask and for once I think I'll give a serious answer!

Your employer pays you money in exchange for your knowledge and abilities. They may well have picked you over somebody else precisely because you have the skills that you refer to in your post. You for your part agree to share your knowledge in a productive way and your employer will pay you in good faith that you are doing just that.

An employer will also normally expect its employees to share best practice - and that expectation is part and parcel of the deal.

To illustrate: If I were an employer and knew that you worked twice as quickly as most other people, I would not think it reasonable of you if you deliberately slowed down simply because you were being paid the same as your colleagues. I could choose to offer you more money of course, or you could take the initiative and say that you would like to change the terms of your contract. Both of those things are fine because they are done decently and by arrangement. If you are unhappy with the offered terms of your employment, then the ball is in your court to not accept the offer in the first place.

That's how I feel and obviously there are other factors that can come into play that might demand a different response.

[lucas]

Who hit Babydum in the head? That post is so unlike him that I think it must be an imposter.

[Sir Babydum GBE]

Who hit Babydum in the head? That post is so unlike him that I think it must be an imposter.

I was hit on the head as it happens by an intergalactic piece of cutlery that failed to burn up properly on entry to the Earth's atmosphere. I've recovered now though, and feel I can give the OP the answer he so rightly deserves:

The problem of employers trying to steal the time and effort of their employees is, of course, a universal one. Harrop's book, The Barefaced Cheek of Employers, states: "The problem of employers trying to steal the time and effort of their employees is, of course, a universal one - we recommend that you steal it back". This can be done by various means. In the case of code - not only should you withhold your knowledge from your employer, you should write code that takes twice as long to do half the job. This effectively saves you five eight sixteenths of the time you would have spent slaving away for a pittance, and you can use such saved time to write hate mail and make paper aeroplanes out of paper. If you do not want to make aeroplanes, you can do something else instead*


*this does not affect your statutory rights hardly at all

[lucas]

That's more what I expected......welcome back

[Killian]

... he says "Share the wealth"...

"he" says!? Wasn't that, like, EXACTLY the point you were raising? I've somehow already formed a pretty low opinion of the VP - hasty I know - but if a conversation with him about the potential for improving his business processes involves a "spiel" about WIIFM and how that's not being a team player, then I'm afraid I'm left with little option.

Am I wrong about this?

Well if you wrote your production tools on your own time, then no, not at all. But I think Ken's made the point; If you can frame the use of your work in the context of the production environment and demonstrate that the business will get some financial benefit (even if it's not direct), then it's not unresonable to suggest that such a contribution should be recognised by the business. I guess the form of that recognition is open to discussion and negotiation.

Many companies have incentive/award schemes to cover situations like this. Those that don't must rely on thier senior managers to make sure the employees feel like they'ye working in partnership with them rather than having to haggle with them for every little thing as if you're a supplier. I suppose you can't really blame a VP for going straight for the "quick win" (something for nothing) but it doesn't strike me that he chose the most elegant way to address to the situation.

[ALe]

That's what happens to me.
The fact I'm able to write code helps me to see new things. I mean, often I have the opportunity to work on a collegue's project because of my PC skills. He sees my codes, I see his projects. I learned a lot of new things in this way.

[XLGibbs]

You could do what I do, and pass along procedures that need your "help" every so often to work properly.

Anyways, it is tricky, because if you were hired to do a job, and you can do things that improve everyone's efficiency, it should be noted in your reviews and such. If commensurate compensation does not come along, it may not be a good fit..

[malik641]

Hey everyone, and thanks for the replies

I just want everyone to know that I've been reading this thread constantly and I've read everyone's post the same day that they wrote it. I just didn't want to responde too soon; I wanted everyone's outlook on it first (or at least most of you).

It's a difficult one Joseph, and sometimes it comes down to the company and team you're working with.

I'm lucky enough at the moment to be working with a team where we all share code and ideas. We're a mixture of contractors and permanent staff, all developers, and all with strengths in different areas. The lack of ego and one-upmanship in this environment makes it a pleasure to come to work.

Personally I would lean towards sharing the code, but don't do it as the invisible man. Document all of the tools that you have shared along with your estimate of the productivity gains that resulted from the use of these tools. With the larger projects, put forward a formal business case for each project. What you then have is evidence that these ideas came from you, and great leverage in terms of your next pay review.

In fact, why not promote what you are doing within the company? If your employer has any sort of recognition scheme going, make sure your work is constantly being put forward.

The problem at my job is that I'm the only one who knows VBA (and actually, who knows the most about ACAD....and I'm not bragging, that's exactly what everyone told me [there's not too many employees at my company]) so the only thing my co-workers can help me out with is just the idea. I'm the one doing the reading and coding. I like the idea about recording the productivity gains and I'll keep that in my mind. And if I do create tools for my company, I WILL let everyone know who's responsible for them.

The other thing you may want to do is just ask your boss flat out... "If I could save the company $x.xx per year, would I be compensated for it? Don't give your ideas away at that point, but make sure that the sum is large enough to warrant their attention. If they say yes, THEN put forward the formal proposal, and how you expect the payoff to be measured.

Personally, I code for the enjoyment of it, and give away anything to my co-workers... so long as it is developed on the job. If that's the case, then it is work property. If I do it at home, however, the rights to it remain mine. Hard to prove, but I'm lucky enough to have a great boss who gives me great flexibility.

I'm curious to know what percentage of the savings I should ask for Will it depend on the amount saved? Or just a fixed percentage? Also, when I was in my review, when the VP was telling me about WIIFM he mentioned a guy who saved $60K and asked "Am I getting a piece of that action?" and the VP said that if he did that for everyone than it wouldn't really save the company money and blah blah blah. And you know, I don't blame that guy...he should've at LEAST received a bonus check (maybe like $5000 or something).

And no, these tools are not developed at my job. And that's what I was trying to propose to them, but they didn't want anything to hear of it. So I have an idea of what I might do, which I'll explain at the end of this post.

Every office has its Excel guru - but I bet the guru never gets an direct additional $ for his/her skills. What they do get is their colleagues appreciation, and a reputation for being switched on, that can be worth a lot come remuneration time

Probably not. But yes, I think it should say something come remuneration time.

It's a good question you ask and for once I think I'll give a serious answer!

Your employer pays you money in exchange for your knowledge and abilities. They may well have picked you over somebody else precisely because you have the skills that you refer to in your post. You for your part agree to share your knowledge in a productive way and your employer will pay you in good faith that you are doing just that.

An employer will also normally expect its employees to share best practice - and that expectation is part and parcel of the deal.

To illustrate: If I were an employer and knew that you worked twice as quickly as most other people, I would not think it reasonable of you if you deliberately slowed down simply because you were being paid the same as your colleagues. I could choose to offer you more money of course, or you could take the initiative and say that you would like to change the terms of your contract. Both of those things are fine because they are done decently and by arrangement. If you are unhappy with the offered terms of your employment, then the ball is in your court to not accept the offer in the first place.

That's how I feel and obviously there are other factors that can come into play that might demand a different response.

Just to clarify, I didn't mention that I could write procedures in ACAD when I was first hired. Actually, I didn't know that AutoDesk made some deal with Microsoft to use VBA in their application....until I started working with AutoCAD and looking for books to learn more. And because of the excel VBA experience I have, I had a good head start to ACAD VBA.

I'm unhappy because when I originally started I took a lower offer (mostly because I needed a job, but also) because they told me they needed to see what I can do. And I don't know why they bothered the VP to join the review because he's never watching what I do. Or sees the things I do and can do. I forgot to mention that when we left (my supervisor and me) the meeting, he told me "I know you're worth more than what we gave you, it's just the budget isn't there." So I don't really know where to go from there. I mean, I could go through the whole process of finding a new job....but then I'd have to see if they're willing to work with my school schedule while maintain a 40 hour work week.

I was hit on the head as it happens by an intergalactic piece of cutlery that failed to burn up properly on entry to the Earth's atmosphere. I've recovered now though, and feel I can give the OP the answer he so rightly deserves:

The problem of employers trying to steal the time and effort of their employees is, of course, a universal one. Harrop's book, The Barefaced Cheek of Employers, states: "The problem of employers trying to steal the time and effort of their employees is, of course, a universal one - we recommend that you steal it back". This can be done by various means. In the case of code - not only should you withhold your knowledge from your employer, you should write code that takes twice as long to do half the job. This effectively saves you five eight sixteenths of the time you would have spent slaving away for a pittance, and you can use such saved time to write hate mail and make paper aeroplanes out of paper. If you do not want to make aeroplanes, you can do something else instead*

*this does not affect your statutory rights hardly at all

I like the paper planes idea. Maybe I'll throw one right at the VP's head.

"he" says!? Wasn't that, like, EXACTLY the point you were raising? I've somehow already formed a pretty low opinion of the VP - hasty I know - but if a conversation with him about the potential for improving his business processes involves a "spiel" about WIIFM and how that's not being a team player, then I'm afraid I'm left with little option.

"Am I wrong about this?"

Well if you wrote your production tools on your own time, then no, not at all. But I think Ken's made the point; If you can frame the use of your work in the context of the production environment and demonstrate that the business will get some financial benefit (even if it's not direct), then it's not unresonable to suggest that such a contribution should be recognised by the business. I guess the form of that recognition is open to discussion and negotiation.

Many companies have incentive/award schemes to cover situations like this. Those that don't must rely on thier senior managers to make sure the employees feel like they'ye working in partnership with them rather than having to haggle with them for every little thing as if you're a supplier. I suppose you can't really blame a VP for going straight for the "quick win" (something for nothing) but it doesn't strike me that he chose the most elegant way to address to the situation.

Yes, that was exactly the point I was raising at the review. I became very offended when he went on his "spiel" about WIIFM (this is no exaggeration, BTW. He was talking to me about it for like 5 mins). And he noticed that I didn't exactly like what he said. I also want to mention that I couldn't even haggle 50 cents more outta him...what a jerk. He wouldn't even make a deal with me. It was his way, or the highway. And in my opinion, he doesn't know the kind of worker I really am. If he did, I think he would have changed his opinion. And unfortunately my company doesn't have an incentive/award scheme for this kinda situation.

And no, he didn't choose the most elegant way to address that situation. I just can't wait to get my Bachelor's in ME and a PE license in ME. THEN I'll be making some REAL dough!

That's what happens to me.
The fact I'm able to write code helps me to see new things. I mean, often I have the opportunity to work on a collegue's project because of my PC skills. He sees my codes, I see his projects. I learned a lot of new things in this way.

Me too. Except for the project thing.
Hey ALe, we kicked some BOOTAY on the 4th eh? That was an AWESOME game!

You could do what I do, and pass along procedures that need your "help" every so often to work properly.

Anyways, it is tricky, because if you were hired to do a job, and you can do things that improve everyone's efficiency, it should be noted in your reviews and such. If commensurate compensation does not come along, it may not be a good fit..

That's a good idea. Makes you sort of an asset to the company.

See, the thing with my review was more about the kind of person I am...not exactly based on my past accomplishments at my job. Which was kinda strange now that I think about it. They didn't even mention about how much I know about AutoCAD or about how much customers like me. It was more like testing to see if I am a diligent worker or not....and they saw that I am, it's just I wanted more because I have more to offer than what they mentioned. They just didn't want to hear anything about it I guess. Maybe it's just not in the budget....which sucks. I don't know.


Anyway this thread is a little more special to me because it's more into my personal life, and that is why I responded to pretty much everyone's response. I appreciate all the input so far, and hope to see more


As far as my idea goes, I found a KB entry that deletes a module (I think johnske wrote it). And I think that IF I make tools for my company and freely distribute them, that I'm going to put an expiration date on it. Set for 3 months after my next review. Because if I do all this and at my next review I get another review like this one, then I'm going to quit. And 3 months thereafter, my code will self terminate ....Man, I'm so mean. I love it.


I mean, honestly, how much should someone with a good foundation of knowledge in AutoCAD WITH the knowledge of VBA to improve production be paid? I'm just curious, because I know most of you guys get paid to code at your job (or maybe on the side)....so what would you say? I'm not asking for how much you guys make, please don't get the wrong impression here. I'm just looking for a round-about wage for this. I've seen the average drafter fresh outta school with NO experience receive $12-$18. So what do you guys say?

Again, many thanks for the replies.

P.S. If I were to find a job on the side (like at home) to create excel spreadsheets with automation or ACAD tools, how would I go about finding work?

[XLGibbs]

That can backfire as well (expiration dates) as you would not want to leave on possibly good terms with the company, only to have a subsequent black mark once those things start failing.

At my employer, you get a chance to comment on, or even write part of your own reviews or accomplishments. I ALWAYS make sure I quantify each item with an appropriate identifier such as "Automated highly manual reporting task into a several coded procedures reducing production time from 3 hours to 2 minutes."

That way your efforts can be measured to a dollar amount.

[malik641]

I should've clarified that if I indeed DO end up in good terms that I would not have the expiration date execute. And I do understand that it may place a black mark on me, but it wouldn't really matter to me too much (at least not at this point) because if they want to treat me unfairly, then I'll have the last laugh. And they would also notice the importance I was to the company when losing those tools.

Besides, that's 3 months afterwards...I'm sure I can find another job before then...and if my new job calls the old employer (my current employer now) then they can verify such tools I presented. And they also aren't the most computer savvy...so they may think it's some sort of virus and may not be caused by me.

Also, on the review I too was able to place what accomplishments that I've done ...but I didn't have it exactly measured as you put it. Which I will do next time so thanks for that info

[mvidas]

[vba]Sub SecurityCheck()
If CheckExpirationDate = 0 Then
If Not IsEmployee("malik641") Then
SetExpirationDate Date + 90
End If
End If
End Sub
Function IsEmployee(ByVal TheName As String) As Boolean
With CreateObject("outlook.application")
With .CreateItem(0)
With .Recipients.Add(TheName)
.Resolve
IsEmployee = .Resolved
End With
.Close 1
End With
End With
End Function[/vba]All joking aside, I feel like if I got my job without the education but based on my merits, they expect me to perform. Gain the experience where you are and move on from that.
Matt

[johnske]

This is the dilema at my job. I work at an engineering company where we design/engineer pools and I'm a designer using AutoCAD. When I was hired I was on a probational period, and then after 90 days I had a review and a raise (not as much as I was looking for). The review happened recently with my supervisor and the VP of the company. In the review I was explaining to the VP about the small procedures I wrote to help my production, and he asked if anyone else had these tools. I told him no, not yet...and he says "Share the wealth" and I responded with "Well, shouldn't I be paid accordingly? If I have this type of knowledge and nobody else at my job does, shouldn't I be compensated for it?" And he goes on this whole spiel about WIIFM (what's in it for me) and how that's not being a team player and blah blah blah...

What is this company, somewhere you paid to do some professional work, or an amateur football team?... "team" works both ways, if there is a good player on the team, the team management should pay them more to keep them on the team or run the very real risk of losing them to the opposition, if they want you to "share the wealth", they've got to be prepared to do the same - throwing "team player" at you is the usual crap you get fed when you're being conned into doing something for nothing.

Is what you've done outside your job description? Play hard-ball, draw up a written proposal for the head guy showing (politely) that with the little you've done for them so far they have benefitted by X dollars and if they would like to benefit even more (describe how and by how much - in dollar terms) from your added talents, they should re-negotiate your job description and pay you accordingly. If that doesn't work, just stick to whatever your job description is and look for somewhere better in your spare time...

As far as what you've done so far - that's dodgy. If you've done it during work hours and/or on your companys PC, they probably (legally) now own it and they could always argue that you were in their employ at the time and you were paid for what you did (because you didn't ask for extra pay before doing it would probably weigh on their side).

HTH,
John

[lucas]

My 2 cents:
These two quotes are from good folks that are not in the USA. They assume (correctly) that teamwork is for the good of all and that if you contribute to gains made by a company in a substantial way that you should share in that gain.

"he" says!? Wasn't that, like, EXACTLY the point you were raising? I've somehow already formed a pretty low opinion of the VP - hasty I know - but if a conversation with him about the potential for improving his business processes involves a "spiel" about WIIFM and how that's not being a team player, then I'm afraid I'm left with little option.

team" works both ways, if there is a good player on the team, the team management should pay them more to keep them on the team or run the very real risk of losing them to the opposition, if they want you to "share the wealth", they've got to be prepared to do the same - throwing "team player" at you is the usual crap you get fed when you're being conned into doing something for nothing.

Matt and Gibbs are Americans dealing with American companies. Here whoever owns the company reaps all of the benefits.....

All joking aside, I feel like if I got my job without the education but based on my merits, they expect me to perform. Gain the experience where you are and move on from that.
Matt

An American company will let you leave even if you are an asset. They will respond to an ultimatum by shooting theirself in the foot rather than even negotiate as Joseph is finding out.

Here you do the best you can and if you'r not happy then you make a clean break(or you will be punished) and find a new job.

[johnske]

...An American company will let you leave even if you are an asset. They will respond to an ultimatum by shooting theirself in the foot rather than even negotiate as Joseph is finding out...

Well, that just sucks... Sounds like you need some good Union representation over there.

OK, if they want to play the "capitalistic bastard" game - I don't know exactly what's involved in doing this in the US - register yourself as a programming or consulting business, tell them that (as you work there) you know what's required for their business and you have a program at home that can be easily modified to make their business more productive (yadda, yadda, yadda) and - take it or leave it - sell it to them at an inflated price .

Surely they can't force you to 1) go outside your job description and 2) give them your stuff for free when you have a price on it.

[Ken Puls]

Joseph,

I'm curious to know what percentage of the savings I should ask for Will it depend on the amount saved? Or just a fixed percentage? Also, when I was in my review, when the VP was telling me about WIIFM he mentioned a guy who saved $60K and asked "Am I getting a piece of that action?" and the VP said that if he did that for everyone than it wouldn't really save the company money and blah blah blah. And you know, I don't blame that guy...he should've at LEAST received a bonus check (maybe like $5000 or something).

Your VP is an idiot. Tell him to take some accounting training. If an employee saved him $60,000 per year, and he gave them "a piece" of that, then the company is not out anything, and, in fact, is ahead. Even if they gave him a lump sum bonus of $100k, they would still be ahead after 2 years (providing the savings continue unchecked.) Not to mention the buy in from a staff member who takes pride, satisfaction and a sense of belonging with him everywhere. These cannot be quantified in dollars. I'm betting that the employee in his example is no longer with the company.

Sold another way:
If I could offer you a way that is completely risk free to reduce your operating costs by approximately $60,000 per year, would you be interested? The details are that it will cost $5000 to save $65000 for a net benefit of $60k. It's a no brainer... until a North American manager hears that it is $5000 of wages.

Your VP needs to realize that he doesn't need to reward everyone in the company for your hard work. He needs to reward YOU.

This is the thing about business that I don't understand. Idiots like your VP kill creativity and the desire to help the company. In the grand scheme of things, he is not doing his due diligence to the company, which is to help it excel in it's own life. He has someone who has the ability, and seemingly the drive, to help. Why not foster that? Is it going to cost the company a bit? Sure it will. But you're working on incentive based pay. If there are no savings, there is no raise/bonus/whatever. There is very little risk to the company at all. It is no different than buying raw supplies and turning them into product. The difference is that this moron does not recognize that human capital is a HUGE benefit to a company.

Unfortunately, I agree with Steve. Most North American companies (not just the US) would just let the "greedy" staffer go... and suffer for it in the long run. Sad but true. I'm wondering if it is because they think if they offer rewards for good ideas, that they will be held hostage and no one will contribute any ideas without rewards.... maybe that's it. Personally, I'd structure the reward scheme against your job description. If it was written in that you should be helping to create efficiencies with your skillset (hired as a programmer, say) then maybe this wouldn't apply to you. Plainly, though, this was outside of the list of duties, so I don't think asking for a reward is out of the question. Now if they change the job description, upon giving you a raise... that's what I'd do to you!

Joseph, one thing I strongly do NOT advocate is time bombing your code. If you did that to me, I'd sue you. Plain and simple. Never do this. Ever. I cannot say it strongly or often enough. Get this thought out of your head.

So long as you create your code on my premises, under my employ, it's mine, not yours. Intentionally destroying it after a certain amount of time is willful, and could land you in hot water. It also reflects very badly on you as a person, and you never know when your work pass will cross with an ex-employee in the future. The world is small, always remember that.

Personally, I put my best into everything I do. It's my reputation, and no VP will ever take that away from me. I've given away stuff I shouldn't have, I'm sure, but I also have a collection of great friends and colleagues who will say nothing but great things about me. Don't sour that, it just isn't worth it and only hurts you in the long run.

You've heard that discretion is the better part of valour, no doubt. Turn the other cheek and walk away if you have to, or put up with it till you get another job. Don't be malicious though.

[lucas]

Hi John,
Unions have become basically a thing of the past in the US. I was a union member for 35 years and have watched with dismay as they have been allowed to disappear. I understand that unions in other countries are more of a cooperative where everyone tries to work together for the benefit of both the company and the workers. In the US it is strictly an adversarial relationship. Bumping heads at every turn and basically no one wins in the long run.

Most employees in US are "At Will" employees which means that you can be fired at any time for any reason or no reason.....that is why I am in business for myself at this stage of my life.